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	<title>Comments on: Negative Energy</title>
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	<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2008/05/negative-energy</link>
	<description>Ben Hyde</description>
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		<title>By: Ben Hyde</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2008/05/negative-energy/comment-page-1#comment-989</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Hyde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 01:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/?p=1662#comment-989</guid>
		<description>Rebecca -  Yes distributed generation can help with resiliency; but it might not be cheaper.  There are advantages to scale, and coordination problems in highly distributed systems.  For example at very high frequency, those generators have to be exactly on beat with the 60Hz signal.  At a more grainy level all those machines have to be kept running and it ends up being a chore that it&#039;s a lot cheaper to centralize.  All that said; as the cost of feed stocks rise a lot more generation at the edge is going make more and more sense.  I find it amazinly how all those falling water power sources used before coal and electricity are going to waste; I assume we will see a lot of small hydro soon.

Some places have regulated the price for power fed back into the grid to make it more equitable and to encourage more build out.  As it stands it&#039;s mostly an irritant for the power company; but with enough of it going on it might begin to be useful.  Meanwhile it&#039;s a bit round about to heat with solar via solar panels; but I&#039;m not surprised that it might still have beter payback than selling it to the power company.  I wonder what he could do with the extra during the summer; must be something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rebecca &#8211;  Yes distributed generation can help with resiliency; but it might not be cheaper.  There are advantages to scale, and coordination problems in highly distributed systems.  For example at very high frequency, those generators have to be exactly on beat with the 60Hz signal.  At a more grainy level all those machines have to be kept running and it ends up being a chore that it&#8217;s a lot cheaper to centralize.  All that said; as the cost of feed stocks rise a lot more generation at the edge is going make more and more sense.  I find it amazinly how all those falling water power sources used before coal and electricity are going to waste; I assume we will see a lot of small hydro soon.</p>
<p>Some places have regulated the price for power fed back into the grid to make it more equitable and to encourage more build out.  As it stands it&#8217;s mostly an irritant for the power company; but with enough of it going on it might begin to be useful.  Meanwhile it&#8217;s a bit round about to heat with solar via solar panels; but I&#8217;m not surprised that it might still have beter payback than selling it to the power company.  I wonder what he could do with the extra during the summer; must be something?</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2008/05/negative-energy/comment-page-1#comment-988</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 00:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/?p=1662#comment-988</guid>
		<description>re large scale systems with choke points.  I read we&#039;d be better off if we had a lot of small electric generation/power plants spread around more, that then the electric system would be more resilient.  Not true?

Someone in town put in solar panels on his shed&#039;s roof.  He&#039;s generating much more than he needs these days and it gets put back into the grid.  Next March the utility does an accounting for the year and they&#039;ll pay him for any excess, but at a very low wholesale rate.  So he figures on installing space heaters and using up all the excess come winter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re large scale systems with choke points.  I read we&#8217;d be better off if we had a lot of small electric generation/power plants spread around more, that then the electric system would be more resilient.  Not true?</p>
<p>Someone in town put in solar panels on his shed&#8217;s roof.  He&#8217;s generating much more than he needs these days and it gets put back into the grid.  Next March the utility does an accounting for the year and they&#8217;ll pay him for any excess, but at a very low wholesale rate.  So he figures on installing space heaters and using up all the excess come winter.</p>
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		<title>By: bhyde</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2008/05/negative-energy/comment-page-1#comment-987</link>
		<dc:creator>bhyde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 15:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/?p=1662#comment-987</guid>
		<description>Different tarrifs are actually common.  The trick is metering.  That in turn in the installed base problem.  Replacing a lot of meters is expensive.  Curiously the utilities around here replaced a lot of meters a few years back.  Their reason was to eliminate the labor of meter readers.  They now read them by driving by in a van.  Missed opportunity?  Maybe the meter software can be upgraded.

Some utilities use that tarriff for home heating; you sink a lot of heat into something over night and then keep the house warm during prime hours.

Part of the load balancing puzzle is exactly how fine grain the response can be.  This is all complementary with the energy storage problem.  For example fly wheels are used for energy storage scenarios where the time constants are particularly short.  Keeping the current in phase, or absorbing/releasing bursts from electric trains starting and stopping - that kind of thing.  So there is another aspect beyond the signaling one I was focused on above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Different tarrifs are actually common.  The trick is metering.  That in turn in the installed base problem.  Replacing a lot of meters is expensive.  Curiously the utilities around here replaced a lot of meters a few years back.  Their reason was to eliminate the labor of meter readers.  They now read them by driving by in a van.  Missed opportunity?  Maybe the meter software can be upgraded.</p>
<p>Some utilities use that tarriff for home heating; you sink a lot of heat into something over night and then keep the house warm during prime hours.</p>
<p>Part of the load balancing puzzle is exactly how fine grain the response can be.  This is all complementary with the energy storage problem.  For example fly wheels are used for energy storage scenarios where the time constants are particularly short.  Keeping the current in phase, or absorbing/releasing bursts from electric trains starting and stopping &#8211; that kind of thing.  So there is another aspect beyond the signaling one I was focused on above.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Tagunov</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2008/05/negative-energy/comment-page-1#comment-986</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Tagunov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 14:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/?p=1662#comment-986</guid>
		<description>Hi! How about a diffirentiated tariff? Cheap at night, expenisive in day time? Or even varied by hour?

Sure you&#039;d need to know how much electricity has been consumed in each hour but then you have a very straightforward economic incentive for users to install these smart fridges. It could even be dynamic - like the cheap hours would vary day to day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi! How about a diffirentiated tariff? Cheap at night, expenisive in day time? Or even varied by hour?</p>
<p>Sure you&#8217;d need to know how much electricity has been consumed in each hour but then you have a very straightforward economic incentive for users to install these smart fridges. It could even be dynamic &#8211; like the cheap hours would vary day to day.</p>
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