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	<title>Comments on: Complexity and Condensation</title>
	<atom:link href="http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation</link>
	<description>Ben Hyde</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:55:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Mike Arsenault</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/comment-page-1#comment-530</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Arsenault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 May 2005 16:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/#comment-530</guid>
		<description>So are you pro-&quot;natural evolution of standards&quot; VS pro-&quot;elitist standards are fun!&quot; ? Or are you simply pro-&quot;monkey&quot;? Either way, I didn&#039;t take a &quot;pro-monkey&quot; view away with me after reading your article. I&#039;ve had coffee now, so I&#039;ll read it again now that I am awake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So are you pro-&#8221;natural evolution of standards&#8221; VS pro-&#8221;elitist standards are fun!&#8221; ? Or are you simply pro-&#8221;monkey&#8221;? Either way, I didn&#8217;t take a &#8220;pro-monkey&#8221; view away with me after reading your article. I&#8217;ve had coffee now, so I&#8217;ll read it again now that I am awake.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Hyde</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/comment-page-1#comment-529</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Hyde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 May 2005 16:31:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/#comment-529</guid>
		<description>Just to be clear.  The monkey in the picture?  That&#039;s me.  I&#039;m of the opinion that in the current technology econology if you don&#039;t tap the power of the billion monkeys your irrelevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to be clear.  The monkey in the picture?  That&#8217;s me.  I&#8217;m of the opinion that in the current technology econology if you don&#8217;t tap the power of the billion monkeys your irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/comment-page-1#comment-528</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 May 2005 16:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/#comment-528</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re devalueing HTML a little too much. I like to think of it as the &quot;gateway drug&quot; of coding for many kids out there. Sure there are lot of monkey&#039;s out there, but quite simply, that&#039;s how many people learn, by looking at what others have done and expanding on it. Actually, it&#039;s the smart way to learn. Why re-invent the wheel? All you have to do is look at all the forums floating around the web where there are developers helping other developers. It&#039;s all about monkey-see monkey-do. Those who choose to learn from what they see and do are those who make a difference.

Products like Dreamweaver are great tools for learning HTML and once you begin building web sites it becomes an addiction. Sure enough, kids will want to do more and if that desire is strong enough they will go out and learn Javascript, XML, PHP, MySQL, ActionScript or what have you.

Anyway, I think many elitists out there forget where there roots are and like to think of themselves as the untouchable geniuses that they are not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re devalueing HTML a little too much. I like to think of it as the &#8220;gateway drug&#8221; of coding for many kids out there. Sure there are lot of monkey&#8217;s out there, but quite simply, that&#8217;s how many people learn, by looking at what others have done and expanding on it. Actually, it&#8217;s the smart way to learn. Why re-invent the wheel? All you have to do is look at all the forums floating around the web where there are developers helping other developers. It&#8217;s all about monkey-see monkey-do. Those who choose to learn from what they see and do are those who make a difference.</p>
<p>Products like Dreamweaver are great tools for learning HTML and once you begin building web sites it becomes an addiction. Sure enough, kids will want to do more and if that desire is strong enough they will go out and learn Javascript, XML, PHP, MySQL, ActionScript or what have you.</p>
<p>Anyway, I think many elitists out there forget where there roots are and like to think of themselves as the untouchable geniuses that they are not.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Arsenault</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/comment-page-1#comment-527</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Arsenault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 May 2005 16:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/#comment-527</guid>
		<description>The beauty of the Web is accessibility. By making it less accessible, sure, you get to have coherent standards and the chance for a more robust overall architecture for future growth. But you have the option of doing that right now anyways. Why limit or constrain the freedom people have to create simple sites/apps? You can have complex architecture up the wazoo for every project you work on without, and I love this, &quot;the monkeys&quot; affecting your ability to do so. You will never be able to go back in time or transmute HTML/HTTP into something so complex that the &quot;monkeys&quot; will not be able to create things using those protocols. And indeed, without these simpler standards, I would argue that the Web would be nowhere as big and widespread as it is today. You would still be working on University intranet sites or for the military as a Web developer. What fun would that be? As long as DreamWeaver and FrontPage continue to incorporate advances in CSS/(d)HTML/XHTML/JavaScript/tool-du-jour, you are never going to get your &quot;monkey free&quot; environment.

The best you can hope for is to raise up the &quot;monkeys&quot; by publishing as many articles/how-to&#039;s/tutorials explaining the more complex standards as you are able to and sell it in such a way that everyone starts using them, &quot;monkey&quot; and &quot;homo-sapien&quot; alike. Elsewise you are going to end up stuck in an Ivory Tower of sorts, bemoaning the fact that many don&#039;t use the same standards you use while the rest of the Web marches on whatever path the &quot;monkeys&quot; take it. Seriously, for every one developer who uses, say, architecture patterns in their web development, there are 100 programmers who do not and 1000 &quot;monkeys&quot; who do not. Without selling the standards you want to see in place and making them accessible, they won&#039;t get adopted plain and simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The beauty of the Web is accessibility. By making it less accessible, sure, you get to have coherent standards and the chance for a more robust overall architecture for future growth. But you have the option of doing that right now anyways. Why limit or constrain the freedom people have to create simple sites/apps? You can have complex architecture up the wazoo for every project you work on without, and I love this, &#8220;the monkeys&#8221; affecting your ability to do so. You will never be able to go back in time or transmute HTML/HTTP into something so complex that the &#8220;monkeys&#8221; will not be able to create things using those protocols. And indeed, without these simpler standards, I would argue that the Web would be nowhere as big and widespread as it is today. You would still be working on University intranet sites or for the military as a Web developer. What fun would that be? As long as DreamWeaver and FrontPage continue to incorporate advances in CSS/(d)HTML/XHTML/JavaScript/tool-du-jour, you are never going to get your &#8220;monkey free&#8221; environment.</p>
<p>The best you can hope for is to raise up the &#8220;monkeys&#8221; by publishing as many articles/how-to&#8217;s/tutorials explaining the more complex standards as you are able to and sell it in such a way that everyone starts using them, &#8220;monkey&#8221; and &#8220;homo-sapien&#8221; alike. Elsewise you are going to end up stuck in an Ivory Tower of sorts, bemoaning the fact that many don&#8217;t use the same standards you use while the rest of the Web marches on whatever path the &#8220;monkeys&#8221; take it. Seriously, for every one developer who uses, say, architecture patterns in their web development, there are 100 programmers who do not and 1000 &#8220;monkeys&#8221; who do not. Without selling the standards you want to see in place and making them accessible, they won&#8217;t get adopted plain and simple.</p>
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		<title>By: mariuz</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/comment-page-1#comment-526</link>
		<dc:creator>mariuz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/#comment-526</guid>
		<description>Well i agree with , the same happens with SQL standard
It was simple enough to learn it in 21 days , Now you need to learn PL/SQL, XML , CLR , JAVA or
whatever fad will be this year</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well i agree with , the same happens with SQL standard<br />
It was simple enough to learn it in 21 days , Now you need to learn PL/SQL, XML , CLR , JAVA or<br />
whatever fad will be this year</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: What was that?</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/comment-page-1#comment-525</link>
		<dc:creator>What was that?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/#comment-525</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Preparing for the Harvest&lt;/strong&gt;

Ben Hyde  observes (amongst many other things &#8211; read the full post):

	  Another way to condense a difuse market is to raise barriers to entry. But, how do you raise the barriers to entry around HTTP and HTML? Easy. Make them more complex.

	  Fo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Preparing for the Harvest</strong></p>
<p>Ben Hyde  observes (amongst many other things &#8211; read the full post):</p>
<p>	  Another way to condense a difuse market is to raise barriers to entry. But, how do you raise the barriers to entry around HTTP and HTML? Easy. Make them more complex.</p>
<p>	  Fo</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Robinson</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/comment-page-1#comment-523</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/#comment-523</guid>
		<description>Wow, now I can see past the egos and understand Dave Winer&#039;s point of view. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, now I can see past the egos and understand Dave Winer&#8217;s point of view. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: steve cooley</title>
		<link>http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/comment-page-1#comment-524</link>
		<dc:creator>steve cooley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2005/04/complexity-and-condensation/#comment-524</guid>
		<description>great post :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great post <img src='http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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